"Last straw"/Clochandichter

Discuss word origins and meanings.

"Last straw"/Clochandichter

Post by Bobinwales » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:32 pm

You may be interested to know that I once saw a bloke from Sardinia playing bagless pipes. He stuck a couple of what looked like sticks into his mouth, played tunes on a chanter and managed the drones with recirculatory breathing. It was quite something to see, and hear.
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Re: "Last straw"/Clochandichter

Post by John Barton » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:04 am

Well, scoff you all may, but here's another web item:
http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/Phrases- ... 47521.html
Quizmonster Thurs 11/01/07
A deoch-an-doruis is a last drink...ie one for the road.
Someone even invented the word 'clochandichter' to mean the drink before the one for the road!
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Re: "Last straw"/Clochandichter

Post by Shelley » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:21 pm

Bobinwales wrote:You may be interested to know that I once saw a bloke from Sardinia playing bagless pipes. He stuck a couple of what looked like sticks into his mouth, played tunes on a chanter and managed the drones with recirculatory breathing. It was quite something to see, and hear.
Oh, Bobinwales, that's nothing: every time we go out to dinner my husband, Fang, does that with the breadsticks -- only he sticks them up his nose!

Signed,
Phyllis

John Barton, I'm really impressed with your single-minded purposefulness over so many years. It's nice to see you back.
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Re: "Last straw"/Clochandichter

Post by Erik_Kowal » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:36 pm

In other words, "Per ardua ad lustrum".
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Re: "Last straw"/Clochandichter

Post by Shelley » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:15 am

Yes, I suppose lust is arduous at times.
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Re: "Last straw"/Clochandichter

Post by Liam - Galway » Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:58 pm

John, perhaps the term "Clochandichter" has an Irish connection, as is frequently the case between Scots & Irish.

Cloch is the Irish for stone (clochan means stepping stones) and "dichur" means dismantling, which might apply to the term in question.

btw, in Ireland "Deoch an Doras" is still in very common use for a final or last drink - doras being Irish for door
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Re: "Last straw"/Clochandichter

Post by Ken Greenwald » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:28 am

John, Here’s one more piece of obfuscation. Last summer my bouncing baby boy went to the Edinburgh International Festival (dance, opera and theatre) and, knowing my love of dictionaries, brought me back an old Chambers Scots Dictionary (1911) he found in a used bookshop. I wonder how this compares with Erik’s Chambers Concise Scots Dictionary? Anyway here’s what I found:

CHAMBERS SCOTS DICTIONARY serving as a glossary for Ramsay, Fergusson, Burns, Scott, Galt, minor poets, kailyard [[kitchen garden]] novelists, and a host of other writers of the Scottish tongue compiled by Alexander Warrack, M.A.

CLOCH verb: To cough frequently and feebly

CLOCHER verb: To cough with much expectoration, wheeze.—noun A wheezing in the throat with much mucus.

DICHTER: A winnower of grain.
_____________________

So what have we here? A coughing winnower of grain who has perhaps been breathing in the dust of his labors one year too many? Grain dust-induced lung disease was common before modern ventilation and facemasks came on the scene. And lest we forget what straw is – it’s the stalks of thrashed grain! Perhaps this old codger is a consumptive clochandichter on the verge of croaking with the winnowing of one more straw – his last! Or something like that. Not completely logical but better than a kick in the teeth, maybe. (<;)
_________________

Ken – April 18, 2009
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Re: Clochandichter

Post by John Barton » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:44 am

Isn't that the Inland Revenue motto - "Per ardua ad cadastre"?
But honestly, shedding light isn't so much trouble as kicking at the thick black dark. If the sun were afreaid of darkness, it would never shine.
Such as my article on Heinrich Heine's line "With his nightcap, and his nightshirt tatters, he botches up the loopholes in the structure of the world" - someone insisted 'tatter' should be 'tappers', due probably to a bad computer scan of a fraktur text.
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Re:

Post by Erik_Kowal » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:37 am

Well, John, five years down the line I imagine you must be delighted to have advanced so far towards an answer.

While you may be no closer to it now, at least we have all had a good go at chasing up and down the byways and blind alleys in the meantime. So now you don't have to! :-D

Ken: The flap on the dust jacket of my 1985 Chambers Concise Scots Dictionary [CCSD] tells me that the book "is in the main an updated distillation of two major works, the Scottish National Dictionary [SND] and the Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue [DOST]". The acknowledgments section refers to the compilation of the SND taking place under the editorship of David Murison from 1946 until 1976, when it was completed. (The editor of the DOST was Prof. A J Aitken, who also contributed to the CCSD.) If the SND was not completed until 1976, and the CCSD was substantially based on that work, then it seems likely that the CCSD's chief resemblance to your 1911 Chambers Scots Dictionary [CSD] resides in its name.

Incidentally, the CCSD largely agrees with the CSD regarding the definitions of 'cloch' and 'clocher', but contains no entry for 'dichter'.
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Re:

Post by Phil White » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:57 pm

Merely for information, "deochandorus" or "deoch an doruis" were discussed briefly here.
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Re: Dight

Post by splendid300 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:36 pm

Erik_Kowal wrote:
I can think of one instance where the word 'dight' occurs in a modern Standard English setting, slightly modified, namely in Dorothy Parker's poem Rondeau Redouble (and scarcely worth the trouble, at that):

In cerements [i.e. wax-impregnated winding sheets] my spirit is bedight;
The same to me are sombre days and gay.
I live in North East England and the word 'dight' is still used (mainly by elderly people) in spoken English. I am not sure what you mean by 'Standard English' but if your standard includes the spoken English of Northumbria then 'dight' is not as obscure as you seem to think. In current usage, 'to dight' is a verb and means to repair, clean, tidy up. I don't know the origins but if this word is used in Scotland then I assume it comes from Anglish.
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Re:

Post by Erik_Kowal » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:25 pm

'Standard English' means, roughly, the non-dialectal form of English that educated native speakers speak. By this definition, the spoken English of Northumbria is not encompassed by the term because it is a regional variant of English.

According to Wikipedia, "Anglish is a form of constrained writing in English in which words with Greek, Latin, and Romance roots are replaced by Germanic ones" (see the article for examples).

Is this really the meaning you intended?

Incidentally, Dorothy Parker's usage would be regarded by most of today's speakers of Standard English as not only obscure but archaic.

However, a word that ceases to be current in Standard English usage may still continue in common use in regional variants of the language.
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Re: Re:

Post by Bobinwales » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:13 am

Erik_Kowal wrote: However, a word that ceases to be current in Standard English usage may still continue in common use in regional variants of the language.
And bravo to that! Long may it stay that way!
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Re:

Post by Wizard of Oz » Sun May 03, 2009 10:45 am

.. Erik I would put forward a thesis that Standard English and/or Received Pronunciation no longer exists or exists in such a fragmented form that it serves little purpose for linguistics .. except maybe for providing thesis topics for PhD students and publications for the CVs of academics .. a quick google provides a wide array of definitions that do share common elements but present as many problems as they attempt to restrict by definition .. I have underlined those terms that I feel lead into dark realms ..
# Standard English (often shortened to S.E. within linguistic circles) is a term generally applied to a form of the English language that is thought to be normative for educated native speakers. It encompasses grammar, vocabulary, spelling, and to some degree pronunciation.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_English

# The English language as it is spoken and written by educated native users; Of, relating to, or characteristic of the English language as it is spoken and written by educated native users.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Standard_English

# A dialect representing English speech and writing comprehensible to most users
http://www.nwlg.org/pages/resources/kno ... nglish.htm

# The form of English taught in schools and used widely by professional Americans, including politicians, journalists, and lawyers. ...
http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/ca ... nenwel.htm

# The variety of English that is generally acknowledged as the model for the speech and writing of educated speakers. ...
esb.ode.state.oh.us/Word/GLOSSARY%20FOR%20DRAFT%20STANDARDS_10_18_05_FINAL.doc

# Language is grammatically correct with no slang.
schools.sd68.bc.ca/bars/englishroom/examwords.htm

# Standard English is the variety of English used in public communication, particularly in writing. It is the form taught in schools and used by (?) ...
http://www.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/second ... ms/s_to_u/

# the language that is used in writing at school such as with an essay
shschool.weebly.com/uploads/1/4/7/6/1476206/grade_7_vocabulary.doc
.. messy, messy, messy .. but of course if we need to be given the definitive answer then we must all hail Prof Trudgill .. oops better say no more as one must never disagree with ones superiors .. must one ?? ..

.. and Bob I say a hearty hear !! hear !! .. unfortunately I don't think that the horizon is very clear .. the linguistic imperialism of the US rushes apace with the force of the WWW .. *sigh* ..

WoZ speaking his Standard English
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Re:

Post by Erik_Kowal » Sun May 03, 2009 2:40 pm

I would put forward a thesis that Standard English and/or Received Pronunciation no longer exists or exists in such a fragmented form that it serves little purpose for linguistics
If you are seeking to dispute the validity of my previous statement,
'Standard English' means, roughly, the non-dialectal form of English that educated native speakers speak,
then it seems to me that you have framed your argument in a very arbitrary and restricted way. (And I should point out that I said nothing at all about the use of Received Pronunciation.)

What exactly do you mean by the term "little purpose for linguistics"? Do you mean 'of little use in the academic domain of linguistics', or do you mean 'not linguistically useful in general'? Either way, I don't think the point bears scrutiny.

It seems to me that in his essay Trudgill clearly lays out the problematic issues in defining what Standard English is or is not, but other than insinuating that his analysis is unreliable or somehow questionable, you show no evidence as to why we should accept your opinion.

Now that you have called into question both the validity of Standard English as a concept and Prof. Trudgill's reasoning, I'd like to hear what you have to say to back up your assertions/insinuations.
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